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      We need to talk about Henderson...

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      5timesacharm
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      Re: We need to talk about Henderson...
      Reply #299: Oct 24, 2017 12:46:45 pm
      What in the f**k are you talking about.

      Mental you

      I think you misread that. I think it's meant to be sarcasm.
      FL Red
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      Re: We need to talk about Henderson...
      Reply #300: Oct 24, 2017 03:10:58 pm
      He's going to have to be some catalyst to turn round a game where our defence coughs up 4 gift goals for the opposition. Think even Stevie might have struggled with that.

      It’s not like we went from tied at 0 to 4-1 immediately. 

      After the first goal we needed to rally, regroup and refocus. I didn’t really see that. Too many times we give up a goal and drop our heads and that’s that. And please don’t compare Stevie to Jordan. That’s just silly.
      Frankly, Mr Shankly
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      Re: We need to talk about Henderson...
      Reply #301: Oct 24, 2017 03:19:34 pm
      It’s not like we went from tied at 0 to 4-1 immediately. 

      After the first goal we needed to rally, regroup and refocus. I didn’t really see that. Too many times we give up a goal and drop our heads and that’s that. And please don’t compare Stevie to Jordan. That’s just silly.

      Just an insult to compare.

      Let's look at Rafa's title challenging 08-09 squad. Who would be a better captain than Henderson? Well Gerrard for a start. Then there's Carra. Then there's Alonso. And Reina. Big Sami of course. Dirk Kuyt without question. Lucas too. Oh, Dan Agger as well.

      All those lads were better leaders on the field back then than Henderson is now.

      But it's not really an insult to Henderson. It's more a case of the glaring lack of maturity and leadership across the whole squad and Henderson just by accident being the most mature of a very immature, irresponsible bunch of players.

      Maybe Klopp needs to stop giving them hugs and start giving them the 'I'll treat you as an adult and you don't need to be mollycoddled' approach of Rafa?

      Having said that, Simon Mignolet would probably sh*t his pants if he was left to prosper alone so maybe JĂźrgen's approach is for the best.
      sore monad
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      Re: We need to talk about Henderson...
      Reply #302: Oct 24, 2017 03:24:30 pm
      And please don’t compare Stevie to Jordan. That’s just silly.

      Ah is that what I did?

      Wilfully misunderstanding a post so that you can make a prissy little patronising comment about it. I never get why the internet makes some people so happy to act stupid.
      racerx34
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      Re: We need to talk about Henderson...
      Reply #303: Oct 26, 2017 11:48:57 am
      The biggest problem LFC have right now is that there are so few leaders on the pitch that there is nobody that stands out as a player that should command the armband off Henderson.

      Talk about Henderson all you want, but really it highlights a bigger issue.
      No leaders. No characters.
      Reina, Carragher, Hyypia, Agger, Mascherano, Alonso, Gerrard, Suarez.

      Not just great players. Great leaders.
      srslfc
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      Re: We need to talk about Henderson...
      Reply #304: Oct 26, 2017 12:01:35 pm
      The biggest problem LFC have right now is that there are so few leaders on the pitch that there is nobody that stands out as a player that should command the armband off Henderson.

      Talk about Henderson all you want, but really it highlights a bigger issue.
      No leaders. No characters.
      Reina, Carragher, Hyypia, Agger, Mascherano, Alonso, Gerrard, Suarez.

      Not just great players. Great leaders.

      Yep.

      I can't think of one player who I would give the armband to if it wasn't Henderson.

      Scotia
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      Re: We need to talk about Henderson...
      Reply #305: Oct 26, 2017 12:19:00 pm
      The biggest problem LFC have right now is that there are so few leaders on the pitch that there is nobody that stands out as a player that should command the armband off Henderson.

      Talk about Henderson all you want, but really it highlights a bigger issue.
      No leaders. No characters.
      Reina, Carragher, Hyypia, Agger, Mascherano, Alonso, Gerrard, Suarez.

      Not just great players. Great leaders.

      Yep.

      I can't think of one player who I would give the armband to if it wasn't Henderson.



      Spot on lads.

      It’s not all about “baws out” “eyes popping” mania either......as much about calm, clinical standard setting.

      We’ve never been a side that relied on out-scrapping the opposition.......just that we could do it when required.

      At our best we always were a side that you’d back with a 1-0 lead in the last 20 mins......that’s control and game management.

      I wouldn’t back this generation  with 2-0 in the last 2 mins......
      Eddieo
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      Re: We need to talk about Henderson...
      Reply #306: Oct 26, 2017 12:19:14 pm
      The biggest problem LFC have right now is that there are so few leaders on the pitch that there is nobody that stands out as a player that should command the armband off Henderson.

      Talk about Henderson all you want, but really it highlights a bigger issue.
      No leaders. No characters.
      Reina, Carragher, Hyypia, Agger, Mascherano, Alonso, Gerrard, Suarez.

      Not just great players. Great leaders.
      Agree

      Except I would of said we don't have any leader.

      I see some players making mistakes and I want to see our players screaming and shouting at at them. I want to see players get in each other faces when they F**k up, so much so, that they are more worried about their team mates reaction than the actual mistake.
      FL Red
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      Re: We need to talk about Henderson...
      Reply #307: Oct 26, 2017 12:35:45 pm
      Ah is that what I did?

      Wilfully misunderstanding a post so that you can make a prissy little patronising comment about it. I never get why the internet makes some people so happy to act stupid.

      Your post literally talked about Henderson’s struggle to change a game and then you said how Stevie probably couldn’t even do it. That’s a comparison. Regardless, Henderson doesn’t deserve to be spoken of in the same post as Gerrard. Sorry if you think I was patronizing you, it weren’t my intention.
      FL Red
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      Re: We need to talk about Henderson...
      Reply #308: Oct 26, 2017 12:36:51 pm
      Yep.

      I can't think of one player who I would give the armband to if it wasn't Henderson.



      Lallana. He was a captain for Southampton, I think he’d do a good job but still nowhere near the level of a Stevie G.
      HScRed1
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      Re: We need to talk about Henderson...
      Reply #309: Oct 26, 2017 12:41:24 pm
      Captaincy is so over rated.

      Need leaders all over the field. Not one individual.
      racerx34
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      Re: We need to talk about Henderson...
      Reply #310: Oct 26, 2017 01:09:10 pm
      Spot on lads.

      It’s not all about “baws out” “eyes popping” mania either......as much about calm, clinical standard setting.

      We’ve never been a side that relied on out-scrapping the opposition.......just that we could do it when required.

      At our best we always were a side that you’d back with a 1-0 lead in the last 20 mins......that’s control and game management.

      I wouldn’t back this generation  with 2-0 in the last 2 mins......

      I'm not even bothered about the armband.
      Even when Gerrard was captain there were still leaders all over the team that would influence the dressing room
      or influence the game, without it needing a captain to do it. I don't see that now.

      Coutinho can do it in a moment of magic, but that's to lead by example as opposed to lift the team/players.
      FL Red
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      Re: We need to talk about Henderson...
      Reply #311: Oct 26, 2017 01:14:13 pm
      Captaincy is so over rated.

      Need leaders all over the field. Not one individual.
      Sure, but it would be nice if we could start with one.
      FATKOPITE10
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      Re: We need to talk about Henderson...
      Reply #312: Oct 26, 2017 04:31:08 pm
      A sad state of affairs that people are hankering after the 2008-2009 team, a team that won nothing, just like the 1995-96 team before it
      Frankly, Mr Shankly
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      Re: We need to talk about Henderson...
      Reply #313: Oct 26, 2017 04:39:20 pm
      A sad state of affairs that people are hankering after the 2008-2009 team, a team that won nothing, just like the 1995-96 team before it

      Is it BALLS a 'sad state of affairs'. As a first eleven it had quality and leadership throughout - it was many times better than the squad we won the Champions League with. No shame in 'hankering' after those qualities, qualities that weren't quite enough on it's own merely for a lack of depth beyond the first eleven something Man Utd and our CL rivals had in abundance.

      Poor attempt at consigning them to the dustbin pal.
      FATKOPITE10
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      Re: We need to talk about Henderson...
      Reply #314: Oct 26, 2017 04:59:10 pm
      Is it BALLS a 'sad state of affairs'. As a first eleven it had quality and leadership throughout - it was many times better than the squad we won the Champions League with. No shame in 'hankering' after those qualities, qualities that weren't quite enough on it's own merely for a lack of depth beyond the first eleven something Man Utd and our CL rivals had in abundance.

      Poor attempt at consigning them to the dustbin pal.

      Christ, touchy or what, as someone who can remember teams thst won something i was stating it is the sign of the time and a sad indictment  we are remembering a team that essentially failed to fulfil it's potential. Of course it was better than the current team but it's a sad reflection of the last 27 years
      « Last Edit: Oct 26, 2017 05:03:50 pm by FATKOPITE10 »
      Scotia
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      Re: We need to talk about Henderson...
      Reply #315: Oct 26, 2017 05:09:34 pm
      Is it BALLS a 'sad state of affairs'. As a first eleven it had quality and leadership throughout - it was many times better than the squad we won the Champions League with. No shame in 'hankering' after those qualities, qualities that weren't quite enough on it's own merely for a lack of depth beyond the first eleven something Man Utd and our CL rivals had in abundance.

      Poor attempt at consigning them to the dustbin pal.

      I get where you’re coming from FMS........but gotta take issue with the your assemment of those squads. The reality is - UCL, Super Cup & FA cup - make you a liar no matter how much you feel it.

      You can mark the players individually and collectively and get a higher number and it still won’t make it so......

      The facts state they weren’t better - even if they should’ve been (and I agree they should).

      I agree with FK10’s broader point. It’s tragic we now hanker after the teams that nearly won sh*t.

      That’s not good enough for LFC and the day it is we should pack up and go home.

      *those of us who aren’t actually at home ;)

      « Last Edit: Oct 26, 2017 05:14:16 pm by Scotia »
      Frankly, Mr Shankly
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      Re: We need to talk about Henderson...
      Reply #316: Oct 26, 2017 06:09:47 pm
      I get where you’re coming from FMS........but gotta take issue with the your assemment of those squads. The reality is - UCL, Super Cup & FA cup - make you a liar no matter how much you feel it.

      You can mark the players individually and collectively and get a higher number and it still won’t make it so......

      The facts state they weren’t better - even if they should’ve been (and I agree they should).

      I agree with FK10’s broader point. It’s tragic we now hanker after the teams that nearly won sh*t.

      That’s not good enough for LFC and the day it is we should pack up and go home.

      *those of us who aren’t actually at home ;)




      There is absolutely no 'tragedy' in name dropping that side and to say so is hyperbole at best.

      What about the alternative? Start hankering after the team that won the CL in 2005? Of course not. Because it wasn't as good. 

      You don't have to win things to be able to qualify a team's certain quality - and Xabi Alonso himself has noted that inconsistency and frustration between having won trophies with a side that wasn't nearly as good as the side in 2008-09. Indeed, who are we to argue when Alonso notes it was the best team he'd ever played in?

      And why do we cite this team? Because it's the most recent in living memory, so established in modern football and therefore can still be used in comparative terms. That team made us feel capable of being the best in England and Europe even if we came up short. It wasn't so long ago to be considered a different era altogether therefore rendering it incomparable.

      Everyone wants to win the league and the Champions League. Who doesn't? But what we are saying is that the very least we want is to have a team that we can believe in again. Football may be about winning trophies but the rest of it is having a good time with a side you can believe in to be the very best. A side that you can cherish and put your whole faith in.

      They might not have won the league that year but they never let me or thousands of other supporters down.
      « Last Edit: Oct 27, 2017 01:34:39 am by Frankly, Mr Shankly »
      FATKOPITE10
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      Re: We need to talk about Henderson...
      Reply #317: Oct 26, 2017 06:19:16 pm

      There is no absolutely no 'tragedy' in name dropping that side and to say so is hyperbole at best.

      What about the alternative? Start hankering after the team that won the CL in 2005? Of course not. Because it wasn't as good. 

      You don't have to win things to be able to qualify a team's certain quality - and Xabi Alonso himself has noted that inconsistency and frustration between having won trophies with a side that wasn't nearly as good as the side in 2008-09. Indeed, who are we to argue when Alonso notes it was the best team he'd ever played in?

      And why do we cite this team? Because it's the most recent in living memory, so established in modern football and therefore can still be used in comparative terms. That team made us feel capable of being the best in England and Europe even if we came up short. It wasn't so long ago to be considered a different era altogether therefore rendering it incomparable.

      Everyone wants to win the league and the Champions League. Who doesn't? But what we are saying is that the very least we want is to have a team that we can believe in again. Football may be about winning trophies but the rest of it is having a good time with a side you can believe in to be the very best. A side that you can cherish and put your whole faith in.

      They might not have won the league that year but they never let me or thousands of other supporters down.

      Do you think the 13-14 team will be as cherished?  And if not, why not ?
      Frankly, Mr Shankly
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      Re: We need to talk about Henderson...
      Reply #318: Oct 26, 2017 06:35:20 pm
      Do you think the 13-14 team will be as cherished?  And if not, why not ?

      No I don't think so. Because, and it becomes more apparent over time, the excellent efforts of that team were more centred on the individual brilliance of one man - Luis Suarez. That's not to take away the superb performances of the likes of Coutinho, Studge and Sterling that season but the side in 08-09 was much more evenly distributed in quality. That said no player in the 08-09 side ever matched the peak brilliance of Suarez in 2013-2014 (although Gerrard, in my view, came close).

      It's all subjective but I also never trusted that team in the way I trusted the 08-09 side even if they did get closer to the title. They never quite commanded that maturity or control and the anarchic nature of our football, where we risked snatching defeat out of the jaws of victory made for thrilling yet uncomfortable viewing. There were a few needless situations we put ourselves in from positions of relative comfort - West Ham at home, Fulham away off the top of my head. We got out of them but didn't when it came to Selhurst Park at seasons' end.

      And certainly the Man City side that beat us to the title that year was no where near the quality of the Man Utd team of 08-09 so the peak level of quality required wasn't as high as it was a few season previously, no better highlighted than if you compare the top two managers from the two seasons - Ferguson/Benitez v Pellegrini/Rodgers. The former pair would come out tops in any tactical battle against the latter pair every single day of the year, even in their sleep.
      Scotia
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      Re: We need to talk about Henderson...
      Reply #319: Oct 26, 2017 06:41:47 pm

      There is no absolutely no 'tragedy' in name dropping that side and to say so is hyperbole at best.

      What about the alternative? Start hankering after the team that won the CL in 2005? Of course not. Because it wasn't as good. 

      You don't have to win things to be able to qualify a team's certain quality - and Xabi Alonso himself has noted that inconsistency and frustration between having won trophies with a side that wasn't nearly as good as the side in 2008-09. Indeed, who are we to argue when Alonso notes it was the best team he'd ever played in?

      And why do we cite this team? Because it's the most recent in living memory, so established in modern football and therefore can still be used in comparative terms. That team made us feel capable of being the best in England and Europe even if we came up short. It wasn't so long ago to be considered a different era altogether therefore rendering it incomparable.

      Everyone wants to win the league and the Champions League. Who doesn't? But what we are saying is that the very least we want is to have a team that we can believe in again. Football may be about winning trophies but the rest of it is having a good time with a side you can believe in to be the very best. A side that you can cherish and put your whole faith in.

      They might not have won the league that year but they never let me or thousands of other supporters down.

      You’re a lot younger than me mate - hence that team are more totemic to you than me. I know what a winning - no, all conquering - Liverpool team looks like and that wasn’t it.

      I think the original, underlying point you were making was that the 08/09 squad was so much stronger than now and how good we had it then. I agree. Wholeheartedly. But - like most things in life - it is relative.

      Where I can’t agree is on your further throwaway remark that it they were so much better as a team / squad than 05/06.

      On paper right? Ok I agree. By a distance.

      BUT

      This is where the magic (human) bit about sport or indeed music comes in.

      Your assertion (to me) is a bit like saying Genesis are better than the Beatles because they’re better musicians technically (I think they’re pish myself but hey ho) They may well be better musicians but it matters not a fuckdoodle because they didn’t produce the same magic or deliver the same life altering moments.......

      Their back catalogues prove it.

      Just like the trophies are there to prove that (ultimately) the 05/06 team as a team / squad had something magical.

      Factually 08/09 team was as good as 13/14.

      For the record - neither squad near my top half dozen LFC.

      Each to their own mate. I just fiercely believe we’re here to win stuff not just compete.

      Good luck to ya.
      Frankly, Mr Shankly
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      Re: We need to talk about Henderson...
      Reply #320: Oct 26, 2017 07:08:40 pm
      You’re a lot younger than me mate - hence that team are more totemic to you than me. I know what a winning - no, all conquering - Liverpool team looks like and that wasn’t it.

      I think the original, underlying point you were making was that the 08/09 squad was so much stronger than now and how good we had it then. I agree. Wholeheartedly. But - like most things in life - it is relative.

      Where I can’t agree is on your further throwaway remark that it they were so much better as a team / squad than 05/06.

      On paper right? Ok I agree. By a distance.

      BUT

      This is where the magic (human) bit about sport or indeed music comes in.

      Your assertion (to me) is a bit like saying Genesis are better than the Beatles because they’re better musicians technically (I think they’re pish myself but hey ho) They may well be better musicians but it matters not a fuckdoodle because they didn’t produce the same magic or deliver the same life altering moments.......

      Their back catalogues prove it.

      Just like the trophies are there to prove that (ultimately) the 05/06 team as a team / squad had something magical.

      Factually 08/09 team was as good as 13/14.

      For the record - neither squad near my top half dozen LFC.

      Each to their own mate. I just fiercely believe we’re here to win stuff not just compete.

      Good luck to ya.

      I may well be younger than you and I might well not have the benefit of having viewed us winning all before us. But I think you're missing the point. This isn't about measuring who's got the greater ambitions. Rightly I won't use a side from the 80s or 70s because I wasn't around to experience it. But at the same time, even if I had been around I realise that it wouldn't hold much weight. Why? Because it's different times and football has progressed massively in the time since our last league title. I know older fans like to hark back to the golden era but to use that time as an example as you are tempted to do so is like being adament that a Ferrari from the 1985 f1 world championship can hold it's own against a Ferrari f1 car of recent years. Of course it couldn't.

      Again, and I stress this as you may have missed it, people cite the 08-09 squad because it's the most recent Liverpool squad in history that made us feel like we could compete with the best. And given it's point in history, modern football history, it acts as a much more useful point of comparison than a side that plied it's trade 3 or 4 decades ago. And why do they cite that one and not the 2013/2014 side? Because as I notified above, it was a better team in a better league against a better competitor.
      « Last Edit: Oct 26, 2017 07:30:20 pm by Frankly, Mr Shankly »
      Scotia
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      Re: We need to talk about Henderson...
      Reply #321: Oct 26, 2017 07:10:09 pm
      I may well be younger than you and I might well not have the benefit of having viewed us winning all before us. But I think you're missing the point. This isn't about measuring who's got the greater ambitions. Rightly I won't use a side from the 80s or 70s because I wasn't around to experience it. But at the same time, even if I had been around I realise that it wouldn't hold much weight. Why? Because it's different times and football has progressed massively in the time since our last league title. I know older fans like to hark back to the golden era but to use that time as an example as you are tempted to do so is like being adament that a Ferrari from the 1985 f1 world championship can hold it's own against a Ferrari f1 car of recent years. Of course it couldn't.

      Again, and I stress this as you may have missed it, people cite the 08-09 squad because it's the most recent Liverpool squad in history that made us feel like we could compete with the best. And given it's point in history, modern football history, it acts as a much more useful point of comparison than a side that plied it's trade 3 or 4 decades ago. And why do they cite that one and not the 2013/2014 side? Because as I notified above, it was a better team in a better league against a better competitor.

      Didn’t miss it mate. Not a jot.

      Just don’t buy it. For the reasons stated.

      Hey - can’t agree all the time ;)

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