Should Klopp pick a new captain?

*Re: Should Klopp pick a new captain?* → Reply #207: Sep 10, 2017 12:05:16 pm

Quote from Ribapuru on Sep 10, 2017 11:42:44 am

Let's be honest here, Hendo was a lazy option from Southgate after Rooney retired last minute before internationals. He's obviously going to pick a club captain. If Henderson is long term captain.. waste of time entering world cup. Zidane, Gerrard, Ronaldinho, Pirlo, Henderson... Pick the odd one out.

Answer: Henderson never made anybodies dream team.

I refuse to believe that the best we can come up with is what half our fans see as mediocre and rivals see as a pathetic choice. Not really showing any ambition when our Captain should be a squad player.

What the F**k are you talking about comparing him to players that don't even play anymore.

At least make a logical argument using todays parameters if you're going to spout more crap.

*Re: Should Klopp pick a new captain?* → Reply #208: Sep 10, 2017 12:08:04 pm

Quote from Ribapuru on Sep 10, 2017 11:42:44 am

Let's be honest here, Hendo was a lazy option from Southgate after Rooney retired last minute before internationals. He's obviously going to pick a club captain. If Henderson is long term captain.. waste of time entering world cup. Zidane, Gerrard, Ronaldinho, Pirlo, Henderson... Pick the odd one out.

Answer: Henderson never made anybodies dream team.

I refuse to believe that the best we can come up with is what half our fans see as mediocre and rivals see as a pathetic choice. Not really showing any ambition when our Captain should be a squad player.

He wasn't the lazy option at all, he was the obvious option given that he was Southgate's Captain at youth level.

*Re: Should Klopp pick a new captain?* → Reply #209: Sep 10, 2017 04:07:42 pm

Quote from Magillionare on Sep 10, 2017 07:34:10 am

I'll carry on agreeing with the paid professionals who have made him captain of club and country.

No wonder England are forever sh*te and we're going nowhere then!!

Them same paid professionals!!

*Re: Should Klopp pick a new captain?* → Reply #210: Sep 10, 2017 06:02:13 pm

Quote from HUYTON RED on Sep 10, 2017 04:07:42 pm

No wonder England are forever sh*te and we're going nowhere then!!

Them same paid professionals!!

Who would you have as your captain out of interest?

« *Last Edit: Sep 10, 2017 06:19:31 pm by PurpleMonkey* »

No point changing Captain now as I reckon it would bring disruption into the squad, but I reckon Mane would be a great captain, the guy is a fighter, but also a world class player. Surprised he hasn't been mentioned much tbh, is he captain for his country?

*Re: Should Klopp pick a new captain?* → Reply #212: Sep 10, 2017 08:13:38 pm

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/liverpool-need-tackle-one-big-13600116

The Echo pretty much echoing exactly what I was saying yesterday with regards Trent and Jordan.

*Re: Should Klopp pick a new captain?* → Reply #213: Sep 10, 2017 08:34:16 pm

Quote from KopiteLuke on Sep 10, 2017 08:13:38 pm

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/liverpool-need-tackle-one-big-13600116

The Echo pretty much echoing exactly what I was saying yesterday with regards Trent and Jordan.

Excellent article, I like this part the most.

Yet it always felt far too easy for City and as captain it is Henderson who will perhaps be under most scrutiny.
Comparisons to his illustrious predecessor are generally worthless but it is difficult to imagine him going through a similar 90 minutes with a zero in the tackle count box.

I guess he was scared to get a graze from the pitch.

*Re: Should Klopp pick a new captain?* → Reply #214: Sep 10, 2017 08:38:33 pm

Quote from Ribapuru on Sep 10, 2017 08:34:16 pm

Excellent article, I like this part the most.

Yet it always felt far too easy for City and as captain it is Henderson who will perhaps be under most scrutiny.
Comparisons to his illustrious predecessor are generally worthless but it is difficult to imagine him going through a similar 90 minutes with a zero in the tackle count box.

I guess he was scared to get a graze from the pitch.

You do know that he's made more tackles and interceptions than anyone in the team in the last couple of years right?

But yea, too scared to get a graze.

Pathetic excuse for a fan... Well... Actually I'm pretty you're not to be honest, still trying to figure out which club you actually support.

*Re: Should Klopp pick a new captain?* → Reply #215: Sep 10, 2017 08:41:26 pm

Quote from Magillionare on Sep 10, 2017 08:38:33 pm

You do know that he's made more tackles and interceptions than anyone in the team in the last couple of years right?

But yea, too scared to get a graze.

Pathetic excuse for a fan... Well... Actually I'm pretty you're not to be honest, still trying to figure out which club you actually support.

Another case of statistics not showing the whole picture

*Re: Should Klopp pick a new captain?* → Reply #216: Sep 10, 2017 08:53:57 pm

Quote from FATKOPITE10 on Sep 10, 2017 08:41:26 pm

Another case of statistics not showing the whole picture

Or a case of people refusing to believe what's happening in front of them in cold hard facts.

People have a problem with Jordan, always have and sadly always will. The egomaniacs amongst us would rather be 'right all along' about Henderson back when Kenny had him playing out of position rather than admit that he's a good player.

Excuse after excuse, all of which have cold hard evidence to show they're wrong. Be it he cares more about how his hair is looking, he only passes sideways, he doesn't get stuck in, he doesn't talk to others around him, he doesn't lead a team, he wouldn't get into the national team, he wouldn't start for another premier league team... And of course the last resort, when all the evidence is right there to be seen... 'Oh but stats don't tell the whole story'. Really, evidence doesn't show anything? Proof does lie? cold, hard facts should be swept under the rug?

All these things crop up every time there is a bad team performance because we are expecting our deep lying midfielder to play 2000s Gerrard and score 20 goals a season. Well I got news for you, he ain't Steven Gerrard and you can wait all you want because there isn't going to be another one. We've got a fine football as a replacement for the armband holder, one picked out by the man himself.

'The facts don't tell the whole story'. Tell me this, are his excellent statistics over the last 4 years just an untold story... Or maybe, just MAYBE... Are people so up their own asses on this one that they can't see 2 feet in front of themselves. I look forward to the silence in here until we have another bad game and it'll once again be Jordan's fault. Maybe we should just give the armband to Migs since our fans are so desperate to shoot the club in the foot.

We don't need a new captain.

*Re: Should Klopp pick a new captain?* → Reply #217: Sep 10, 2017 08:56:55 pm

There was also this one from blood red

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/many-liverpool-fans-problem-jordan-13594503

Regarding the game yesterday, don't disagree that Hendo had a poor game. As did a lot of the players. Though as Captain, you would hope and expect him to be the one to show example and set the tone. Make a crunching tackle, take a yellow to get the blood moving. Something.

But the thread is about picking a new captain. Who would people choose instead? Hendo has captained the England u-21s and the national team, so has experience of it, and Klopp has chosen him again this season, so must see something in him. Or maybe he just doesn't see anything more in anyone else

Imho the fact that there is arguably no better candidate is a failure of planning and recruitment, particularly how we've shied away from signing one or two guys with serious experience á la Gary McAllister etc.

*Re: Should Klopp pick a new captain?* → Reply #218: Sep 10, 2017 09:01:34 pm

Quote from Magillionare on Sep 10, 2017 08:38:33 pm

You do know that he's made more tackles and interceptions than anyone in the team in the last couple of years right?

Usually defence is the best part of his game, but yesterday even that was gone.

Stats;

Shooting accuracy 29%
Goals Per Match 0.09.. that is less than 1/100 and he has been centre mid before he moved back to playmaker.
Cross Accuracy 25% worse than his shooting.

Below looks nice on paper;

Through Balls 109
Accurate Long Balls 826

But consider how many turned into goals;

Assists 37 in 255 games.

Conclusion;

In 1/7 games he gets an assist
In 1/100 games he gets a goal

As much as I don't like Coutinho's behaviour, if we put him as deep lying play maker would the stats be the same?

Our win rate with Henderson the field is 118/255.. under 50% and he is meant to be the captain.

He made roughly 2 tackles a game, with 71% success, it's the only part of his game that is okay. Perhaps if he was a defender I wouldn't have as much of a problem with him.
All his stats yell out good defender but can't create a damn thing.
In the middle of the park, looking lost, short 5 yard passes and hoofing it long up the pitch and nothing, game after game after game... then gets back and makes a couple of important tackles....

Of course I support Liverpool, I don't support Henderson to be a midfielder, playmaker or captain.
He is a good squad player in a good side or stand out in mid table club.

*Re: Should Klopp pick a new captain?* → Reply #219: Sep 10, 2017 09:11:05 pm

Quote from bmck on Sep 10, 2017 08:56:55 pm

There was also this one from blood red
http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/many-liverpool-fans-problem-jordan-13594503

Regarding the game yesterday, don't disagree that Hendo had a poor game. As did a lot of the players. Though as Captain, you would hope and expect him to be the one to show example and set the tone. Make a crunching tackle, take a yellow to get the blood moving. Something.

But the thread is about picking a new captain. Who would people choose instead? Hendo has captained the England u-21s and the national team, so has experience of it, and Klopp has chosen him again this season, so must see something in him. Or maybe he just doesn't see anything more in anyone else

Imho the fact that there is arguably no better candidate is a failure of planning and recruitment, particularly how we've shied away from signing one or two guys with serious experience á la Gary McAllister etc.

That article says he passed the ball over 2057 times, but he was meant to be a play maker, he created 3 chances.
If we made Firmino captain, it would be the first time we have had a captain fantastic since Gerrard.

*Re: Should Klopp pick a new captain?* → Reply #220: Sep 10, 2017 09:31:47 pm

Quote from Ribapuru on Sep 10, 2017 09:11:05 pm

That article says he passed the ball over 2057 times, but he was meant to be a play maker, he created 3 chances.
If we made Firmino captain, it would be the first time we have had a captain fantastic since Gerrard.

Think that's a bit of a stretch cause I don't see anyone at all in the squad who can have an impact on a game in the way SG was able to do for many years.

And even then SG had a core of detractors, seems to go with the captaincy turf.

*Re: Should Klopp pick a new captain?* → Reply #221: Sep 10, 2017 09:35:59 pm

Quote from Ribapuru on Sep 10, 2017 09:01:34 pm

Usually defence is the best part of his game, but yesterday even that was gone.

Stats;

Shooting accuracy 29%
Goals Per Match 0.09.. that is less than 1/100 and he has been centre mid before he moved back to playmaker.
Cross Accuracy 25% worse than his shooting.

Below looks nice on paper;

Through Balls 109
Accurate Long Balls 826

But consider how many turned into goals;

Assists 37 in 255 games.

Conclusion;

In 1/7 games he gets an assist
In 1/100 games he gets a goal

As much as I don't like Coutinho's behaviour, if we put him as deep lying play maker would the stats be the same?

Our win rate with Henderson the field is 118/255.. under 50% and he is meant to be the captain.

He made roughly 2 tackles a game, with 71% success, it's the only part of his game that is okay. Perhaps if he was a defender I wouldn't have as much of a problem with him.
All his stats yell out good defender but can't create a damn thing.
In the middle of the park, looking lost, short 5 yard passes and hoofing it long up the pitch and nothing, game after game after game... then gets back and makes a couple of important tackles....

Of course I support Liverpool, I don't support Henderson to be a midfielder, playmaker or captain.
He is a good squad player in a good side or stand out in mid table club.

His position is a deep lying midfielder. Goals and assists are not what he is being asked to do. He is being asked to turnover the ball, and pass it to the create people, be it the advanced midfielders or the wingers who then try to assist the goal scorers.

All of our longer serving players have a games played/games won ratio which hovers around the 50% ratio so I don't see your point there and how being a captain means anything. As a matter of fact, the last few seasons have shown Henderson's ratio in particular rise as there have been several articles about when he plays, we do better including this one as an example:

https://www.thisisanfield.com/2017/03/statistics-show-jordan-hendersons-return-can-help-seal-liverpools-top-4-finish/

His passing has long been misinformed as 'only short passing' but it's just not true his average pass length is one of the highest for a midfielder in the Premier League. I posted the stat a few weeks back comparing him to Herrera, Kante, Dembele and others, feel free to check it out.

He is superb defensively too, already this season he has recovered the ball 40 times! Compare that to the rest of our team and it shows just HOW MUCH Henderson does in terms of turning the ball over, it really is crazy to compare.

Henderson - 40
Matip - 22
Can - 19
Gini - 11
Milner - 10
Lovren - 6

Your attempt to share some stats but not others is cute, however backs up my claim that people are expecting him to be Steven Gerrard. Talking about goals per game or 10+ long spraying passes per game... He's not Steven Gerrard. He's Jordan Henderson. He wins the ball back and give it to our playmakers. He has a long ball in his locker when he needs it (landing 4+ long balls a game on average) however, he doesn't always need it.

Simply put. His role in the team is to win the ball back for us. He is the best we have at doing that. He is one of the best in the league at doing that, stats show him as 'the best' this season, however I'm under no illusions about the abilities of Kante or Dembele but I can safely put Jordan in as a 3rd best in the league at what he does behind those two world class players.

*Re: Should Klopp pick a new captain?* → Reply #222: Sep 10, 2017 11:01:31 pm

Personally, I agree with Mags here.

I don't think Henderson is the issue. We had a bad day at the office and a scapegoat is needed and unfortunately for Jordan he had a shocker of a game.

If he was to go out for another extended period of time due to injury I might agree at that point. At the end of the day had Klopp not fancied him as captain, he wouldn't be captain. Simples.

He obviously must put an awful lot of work in behind the scenes that we don't see.

Can he be frustrating to watch at times? Of course he can. He's becoming the new Lucas and a little like Marmite, you either love him or hate him. At the games I've been at over the past couple of years he's been the subject of debate amongst the fans as has Gini recently.

Jürgen no doubt loves the fact he's constantly pressing. He does have the passion there (albeit it doesn't always show in his cliche riddled post game interviews) and I reckon a 100% fit Jordan Henderson will probably silence his critics at some point as long as he doesn't get himself injured.

*Re: Should Klopp pick a new captain?* → Reply #223: Sep 10, 2017 11:05:48 pm

I don't see anyone else in the current squad better able to take the captain's armband right now.

We do lack leaders which was very evident in yesterdays game.

Hendo is as good as we've got right now.

*Re: Should Klopp pick a new captain?* → Reply #224: Sep 11, 2017 12:58:40 am

Quote from Magillionare on Sep 10, 2017 08:53:57 pm

Or a case of people refusing to believe what's happening in front of them in cold hard facts.

People have a problem with Jordan, always have and sadly always will. The egomaniacs amongst us would rather be 'right all along' about Henderson back when Kenny had him playing out of position rather than admit that he's a good player.

Excuse after excuse, all of which have cold hard evidence to show they're wrong. Be it he cares more about how his hair is looking, he only passes sideways, he doesn't get stuck in, he doesn't talk to others around him, he doesn't lead a team, he wouldn't get into the national team, he wouldn't start for another premier league team... And of course the last resort, when all the evidence is right there to be seen... 'Oh but stats don't tell the whole story'. Really, evidence doesn't show anything? Proof does lie? cold, hard facts should be swept under the rug?

All these things crop up every time there is a bad team performance because we are expecting our deep lying midfielder to play 2000s Gerrard and score 20 goals a season. Well I got news for you, he ain't Steven Gerrard and you can wait all you want because there isn't going to be another one. We've got a fine football as a replacement for the armband holder, one picked out by the man himself.

'The facts don't tell the whole story'. Tell me this, are his excellent statistics over the last 4 years just an untold story... Or maybe, just MAYBE... Are people so up their own asses on this one that they can't see 2 feet in front of themselves. I look forward to the silence in here until we have another bad game and it'll once again be Jordan's fault. Maybe we should just give the armband to Migs since our fans are so desperate to shoot the club in the foot.

We don't need a new captain.

Oh please if he would be the top player that you are suggesting he is there would not be so much discussion around him and even a thread debating if he deserves to be captain..do you see any discussion doubting their quality around Modric Kante or Alli for example ? no because everyone and their mother knows they are quality and you can't debate that; he also wouldn't be needing 10 page articles from club based sites every three fcking months praising how much he ran and demanding that fans 'get on board' and like him.

*Re: Should Klopp pick a new captain?* → Reply #225: Sep 11, 2017 02:00:16 am

Quote from Magillionare on Sep 10, 2017 06:02:13 pm

Who would you have as your captain out of interest?

Matip or at a push Can.

Problem with this team is there is no genuine leaders.

Yeats, Hughes, Souness, Gerrard - all born leaders. Something this team lacks, something Henderson will never be no matter how much he tries to act it.

*Re: Should Klopp pick a new captain?* → Reply #226: Sep 11, 2017 02:12:59 am

Quote from HUYTON RED on Sep 11, 2017 02:00:16 am

Matip or at a push Can.

Problem with this team is there is no genuine leaders.

Yeats, Hughes, Souness, Gerrard - all born leaders. Something this team lacks, something Henderson will never be no matter how much he tries to act it.

Matip is as quiet as a mouse and shows no leadership skills what so ever, i wont even go on about his lack of defensive skills

Can has not shown any leadership quality and his lack of willingness to sign a new contract demonstrates his doubt.

One of the main issues is that we have no leaders

*Re: Should Klopp pick a new captain?* → Reply #227: Sep 11, 2017 02:23:46 am

Quote from wellbuilt on Sep 11, 2017 02:12:59 am

Matip is as quiet as a mouse and shows no leadership skills what so ever, i wont even go on about his lack of defensive skills

Can has not shown any leadership quality and his lack of willingness to sign a new contract demonstrates his doubt.

One of the main issues is that we have no leaders

Don't know about quiet as a mouse, thinking more along the likes of Hansen, who wasn't the mouthiest of captains, but seen a couple of times from vantage point of the kop in the first half when he was giving little pointers to Gomez.

That aside I do agree there is no stand out leader in this team.

*Re: Should Klopp pick a new captain?* → Reply #228: Sep 11, 2017 03:02:38 am

Quote from HUYTON RED on Sep 11, 2017 02:23:46 am

That aside I do agree there is no stand out leader in this team.

This is our biggest problem, I have no problem Henderson being captain, although he isnt the best there is, however like I have said before, what other options do we have?

We are toothless, we have been before, and the City game highlights this fact, when we need someone to stand up and be counted, we simply dont have anyone.

There is not one player who is capable of leading this team, Mane? no, he is good at what he does, attacking defenders through his play, can anyone imagine him screaming at his team mate to pull his finger out? no, nor can I.

We have talented players, but we have no leaders, we have great attacking players but nothing in defence. We have hope for the season but nothing to promote that hope.

In the past we had a manager who had charisma, we had a team of talent, and we had players who had authority on the pitch.

Compare it to now.

*Re: Should Klopp pick a new captain?* → Reply #229: Sep 11, 2017 09:44:26 am

If we ever sign VVD he will be captain.

Until then it's Hendo.

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